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OPEN LETTER... sharing.

 
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Arhat



Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Germany/Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: OPEN LETTER... sharing. Reply with quote

To everyone:
This is a text that will "change" from time to time, over the next days, it is an "organic" text, moving...
It contains some explanations to everyone here, i.e. why I decided to take some actions against "jokers" who are playing a game manufactured by their "lords"...

I have no doubt about doing what I am doing... not a bit.
Those who have been following this Forum lately, posting or not, may have seen what has been happening.

Two members have been abusing, insulting, cursing for a while...
These two members are "dogbite"( seems to be from England) and "Timoteus Dobsonius", most probably from Australia.

What did they want here? To get information about Breatharianism? I doubt that.

I will not describe what they have been doing here, anyone can have a look in some of their posts that are still here and see.

It would be interesting, for anyone to understand better their intentions, to go to Jasmuheen's Forum and read their posts there, TD, TeeDee, Tim Dobson, Timothy Dobson, many usernames, same person.

I was told that the worst posts there were deleted by Jasmuheen, they got to the point of physically threatening her.

As I was honored with the invitation from JMW to moderate this Forum for some time, and I thank him for his trust, I will do what I feel right at the moment.

Did I ever ban people from any of three Forums I have moderated which are now "running" almost on their own? No.

In those Forums I have I have always deleted the very FIRST insulting message, so the presence of these people was cut short from the very beginning.

I am NOT interested anymore in debating with these two folks. The reason is not that their positions are antagonic to mine.

The reason is that I came to the conclusion they are here just to annoy, to play, and ultimately have fun.
I even respect that freedom, as long as they don't suck time/energy from anyone.

The main disadvantage I see in their presence here is a silent one, that I perceive somehow.

By posting so many empty messages, not contributing at all to the main theme this Forum has, and filling their messages with insults, bad manners, rough talk, they PREVENT the presence here of many people, "silent readers" who maybe decide even not to register themselves as members for that reason.

I have joined Forums with fiery debates, where the level of discordance was high but at the same time there was respect and enough good manners.
The core of a good debate is for me attacking ideas and concepts, not people.

Other qualities are the demosntration of knowledge, experience from the parts.
A third quality is the sharpness, the intelligence the debate participants have.
All these characteristics were not demonstrated by neither "dogbite" nor Timoteus.

I gave up signing up to many Forums after reading people like"timoteus" and "dogbite" alikes in them. I would just move away.

Another reason I am NOT interested in spending any more time with these kind of members is that my tolerance to cursing, calling names and insulting is close to zero, in general.

People with high IQ and bad manners might still keep my attention, I am not "soft" all the time myself.

But what I have no time for is people combining all the bad quialities at the same time.
The combination of lack of manners, aggressivity and lack of intelligence creates immediately "lack of interest" in myself.

To post ideas opposing others and debating them is something I like to do, I find the divergence basically healthy. I went on with a 320+ posts debate last Jan/Feb over Veganism.
Divergence that lead to SYNERGISM is highly fruitful. That has a huge difference to insulting people, hasn't it?.

Even though this Forum means to me much more than a "game", it can be sometimes seen also as a mental game, it can be one aspect of it, not the most interesting though.

Let's compare that aspect of this Forum to a football game.
In that case both teams are totally against each other...in some extreme cases that could happen in a debate, that's why I am calling that situation a mental game.
In football they are almost "enemies" during the game. But there are rules for the game.
When a player kicks intentionally the adversary... he gets a "yellow" card, that means banned from that game. After getting some "yellow" cards he gets a red card, that means banned from some games.
I am starting to delete useless post from the two individuals, banning the in on the way.

JMW, the creator of this site used to transfer insult posts to a special topic.

I wrote many replies to these two individuals to posts where they insulted my ideas and insulted me personally.
Their "intention" was to insult. Did I feel insulted? No.

I went on trying to get some substance from a debate with them.
Then I noticed that one just want to insult and "have fun", affirm all sorts of things that can generate annoyance.

Did he annoy me? No. Did I spend time dealing with him? Yes.
Did I learn anything from debating with them? No.

After a while the "insult" corner became the most "active" here.
Dogbite repeats himself all the time, the same: that Breatharianism does NOT exist.
He is DENYING the possibiliy. That's is a basic mistake, you can`t prove negatives.

Then he "believes" that if one does not DENY, one is automatically "believing" that Breatharianism exists and is REAL.

One basic approach I have is NOT to believe in anything. I go with Zen on that one.

I heard JWM saying somewhere that the only proof possible is that which comes from within yourself, I agree. I don't remember his exact terms, if he didn't say this, it is the way I see anyway.

Just hearing, or reading information about Breatharianism doesn't mean much it could be just information, useful for some, useless for others. What counts is what you do with information.

Most probably there is no way to validate 100% proofs that come from external sources. Even if you would live 24 hours with a bretahrian and would never see him eating, video cameras on him, etc, you could always doubt if he hypnotised you, bribed the camera caretaker, etc and ate a pizza as you slept...

I forgot about "external" proofs a long time ago! Information, sharings from others are ok. They are jus "pointers" though, not proofs.

Having no external proofs about Breatharianism does not invalidade the possibility, from my perspective.

But having no personal proofs of it does NOT dismiss it as a "possibility".
Something could be highly improbable and still possible.

Let's search and experiment. One nice aspect of this "road" to Breatharianism is that even IF it isn't possible, you might discover so much about the present Nutritional paradigms, there is so much to learn about our physiology, and we CAN be the scientists, our own "guinea pig", perform experiments.

I am not a "believer" concerning Breatharianism or anything for that matter.

I don't believe that Breatharianism exist UNTIL I experience it for myself. I am open to search, to sharings from others, and seriously interested to go on discovering. And I DID discover quite a lot of surprising stuff so far.

I like to search, research and discover, I think like in the phrase below:


"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite".
Bertrand Russell



I am here to discover, read the experiences others have had, discover together.

I won't reply anymore to posts having bad tones, just to save my time, I said already all I wanted to say to them, my will to spend my time does not exist anymore. The sole intention I had while replying to them was to share information which could be useful for others.
I am locking topics and deleting useless posts from that kind of people.

Obviously all contributions concerning the main subject in this Forum is welcome. I hope many silent friends will feel more interested in sharing here without anyone throwing knives of ignorance on them.

Many of us are interested in experimenting in various ways with less food, temporary fasting, juice/ water fasting.
Let's share this. I will eventually post my personal experience.

The two "empty skeptics" without interesting arguments are going to be banned.
Will they come back with other names? Yes...
Will they post the same shallow texts again? Most probably...
Will they be banned again? No doubt about it.
Time is precious, I feel I spent MORE than enough time on them and we have so much interesting material to share...

I will probably delete my posts concerning them too. Just need a little time maybe to choose any post from them where there is a minimum of substance, and maybe there is any reply worth to keep.
An intelligent, provocative post from a guest or member here can be great, challenging, and can be followed by interesting debate.
That was not really the case with the two individuals I am talking about here.

But.. as this might take too much time, I might just delete all, whole topics where the two individuals posted.
No post from anyone else will be deleted, of course. I didn't see anything so low in content from anyone else.
I is like a "deep cleaning"...

I know some other interesting Forums like this, but having much more active members. I won't "mention" them here, they "might" migrate to there and annoy, like they did when Jasmuheen decided finally to restrict their pathological activity over there.
I intend to invite some interesting people to come and enrich our group.

Over the last 2 years I read many hundreds of posts in Foruns, texts from mayn sites, books... there is a lot happening out there.
I hope (but don't feed "expectations") that we can warm up this Forum with sharing, information exchange that will contribute to everyone's individual experience.

Every truth comes up sooner or later, the same for every lie.
I am interested in Truth and I think that is the case for everyone here.
But my feeling is that having members here who demonstrate shallow arguments and have fun throwing stones on everyone... that is coming to an end.
Definitely.

Arhat



Last edited by Arhat on Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:50 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you overrate the significance of this forum, Arhat, rather significantly. You see, there simply aren't enough people out there to sustain a rolling dialogue about the absurdity of trying to deny yourself food and water: to most people, the reason for this is self-evident, but they'd have difficulty explaining this whilst stifling their laughter, I would think.

You, Arhat, know - despite your continued efforts at impressing people with Bertrand Russell and Buddhism - know this every bit as much as I do, but in my opinion, the reason that you continue to encourage a sharing of views on the subject is NOT because you beleive passionately in the importance of universal dialogue, but because facilitating here gives you a chance to feel important. Is that insulting? Does it merit the deletion of this post?

The problem you have, Arhat, is that your responce to contention is to immediately - and rather hysterically - label it all crude, destructive and malovelent. This is easy, but ironically, it serves a prupose contrary to that which you continuosly claim to uphold .. universal dialogue, aka free speech.

Playing word games, spinning rhetorical sentences about the impossibility of proving negatives and trying to show hypocrisy in the entries of the cynics simply distracts us all from the crucial issue, the issue that bores and irritates and ultimately enrages the credulous and the badly informed: proof. Proof is sacrosant, beyond reproach, pure and clean. Oh we can deny it, ignore it, brush it aside, dismiss it at irrelevant, tell each other we only need faith .. we can play all sorts of games with our convictions and our descriptions, but in the end, there it remains, persisting, lowering over the horizon no matter which way we go.

Whatever vehicle we are riding on, whichever fantasy or hope, we have to accept that what we beleive either can be proved, or it cannot. It's no good saying the POTENTIAL for it is out there, because we live in the real world, where new ideas fall over and die if they can't reach that horizon.

And this idea, breatharianism, crashed and burned a long time ago. You people just haven't woken up in the wreckage yet.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: Arrogant posts without insults ... sometimes deserve replies Reply with quote

This is Arhat obviously... I am replying as a "guest" for many reasons...

Among all the supposedly Breatharians there are only two, to my knowledge, who say they don't drink water; one is Mony Vital, see the text: http://forum.breatharian.info/viewtopic.php?t=115
the other is an Indian, Sunyoga Umasankar who supposedly doesn't drink water.
There is a text about him here: http://forum.breatharian.info/viewtopic.php?t=124

But even not drinking water does not mean not hydrating the cells. When anyone takes a shower or immerses himself in water the body absorbs water through the skin and the necessary cell hydration happens.
What seems to be a fact is that through no eating the need for drinking water diminishes substantially and the contact with water through bath maybe enough.

Anonymous wrote:
...despite your continued efforts at impressing people with Bertrand Russell and Buddhism


It is not me who impresses people with B.R. and Buddhism. It is Mr. Russell intelligence and Gautam Buddha's wisdom that impresses people. I am just quoting.
Some quotes that apply here, some are needed repetitions:

"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite".
"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so".

Bertrand Russell ( 1872 - 1970 -British philosopher, logician, essayist, and social critic)

"New truths go trough three stages.
First they are ridiculed, second they are violently opposed and then,<>
finally, they are accepted as being self-evident."

Arthur Schopenhauer (German philosopher 1788 - 1860)

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to treat everything as if it were a nail".
Abraham Maslow (PhD, 1908-1970 - American psychologist)

"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose sight of the shore"
André Gide (French writer, humanist, who received the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1947)


The choice to live our passion is not dangerous, it is much worse, it is unknown. But what is known can never be new or creative. If we die in our passion, at least we have lived, if we live in the known we have already died.
Steven Harrison (American contemporary philosopher, lecturer, author)

Anonymous wrote:
because you beleive passionately in the importance of universal dialogue, but because facilitating here gives you a chance to feel important. Is that insulting? Does it merit the deletion of this post?

No, that is not insulting, that is just a judgment, a cheap one.

Anonymous wrote:
This is easy, but ironically, it serves a prupose contrary to that which you continuosly claim to uphold .. universal dialogue, aka free speech.


Free speech does not mean everyone must be interested in your speech.

Anonymous wrote:
... the issue that bores and irritates and ultimately enrages the credulous and the badly informed: proof.


This subject has been repeated here, dozens of times: The point here is not proving Breatharianism to anyone. That has been clearly stated by this Forum creator, I agree with him.
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating." There are many ways one can start experimenting with it. Joachim covered this subject in his book, available for free here.
The page 86 of my last updated download says that there are as many methods to experiment in the direction of non-eating as there are human beings. He mentions 13 methods, and says they are simplified descriptions.
1. Natural
2. Spiritual
3. Sudden
4. Forcing
5. 21 day process
6. Hypnotic
7. Alternate
8. Conscious Eating
9. Trying
10. Philosophical-Intellectual
11. Sungazing
12. Alchemical
13. Your Own

Joachim's book can be downloaded from here:
http://forum.breatharian.info/viewtopic.php?t=7

Anonymous wrote:
....It's no good saying the POTENTIAL for it is out there, because we live in the real world, where new ideas fall over and die if they can't reach that horizon.


If all the claims would have to be proved "a priori", without research, without search-and-error, without open mind to work on the discovery process, the Earth would still be "flat", no scientific discovery would have ever being done, etc.
This is the whole point here, to research, to experiment and share the process each one is going through. Maybe individual proofs can be reach. Then one's personal proof cannot easily be transferred to others. So, it is useless to TRY get people to prove anything to you. You have to research on your own, experiment on your own.
There is no need to believe, belief can be even a hindrance. To experiment with many methods that shake the present paradigms about Nutrition is NOT for everyone. Breatharianism in the present stage of human evolution is an IDEA that appeals and shake the interest of very few. The need to attack, to insult is the NEED of many. It has always been so. Because of new ideas, different concepts, people have been ridicularized, insulted, threatened, tortured, burned, crucified, murdered.
But changes happen anyway, evolution happens anyway, movement towards the new is inevitable.
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